No, it isn't a joke. I didn't say that this country is perfect. But relatively speaking, Norway is one of the most peaceful countries in the world. You are an ex-history student. You should know this.

Wikipedia -> Global Peace Index -> Norway. Let's see... in the last 5 years: 1st, 3rd, 2nd, 5th, 9th (out of 150 countries).

I think you should look around in the world a bit. Really! Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya to list some of the most famous where Norway was, and still is, directly involved. But really it is not the debate here.

The debate is about if it is right to give the extremists, as they are few and irrelevant, time in the media. I dont think so, and I belive that the media is actually creating a situation instead of fixing anything. What they are doing is nothing else than making fronts, not building bridges. This is really about intolerance, and not tolerance.

Why dont they talk to the palestinians in the tents instead? They have lived there for ten months, and that is really something for the history - by the way the longest demonstration on norwegian soil, and the first palestinian camp outside middle east since 1948. That is history, they have a real message, the clown outside Stortinget dont. They need the media, why give it to them?

Manglende respons på innlegget ditt kan vel tyde på at du har feil problemfokus. At palestinere generelt har lite behov for beskyttelse siden så mange har fått avslag på asyl. Så gi "havre til en død hest " interesserer bare de færreste. Og du: Å slå Alex Yorks meninger i hardtkorn med Anders Bering Breivig er gement og utilatelig. Det sier mer om deg, enn han.

Nå var det ikke helt en sammenligning mellom personen York og personen Breivik, men om frykt. F.ø. ville jeg vel antatt det motsatte var tilfelle.

Magnus: It was a comparison between me and Breivik, it was pathetic, uncalled for, and you should be ashamed of yourself for it. It obviously isn't just me who thinks so, too. I won't respond to such nonsense in the future. That is all I have to say about that. (It is so rediculous and offensive that it is almost comical - "Godwin's Law" springs to mind).

Suprisingly, for someone who started the discussion, you have contributed almost nothing to it since then.

However, I do think that fear is somewhat relevant to the discussion. Are the newspapers needlessly trying to spread fear, when we really have nothing to fear? Or do we genuinely have a problem that should worry us? Or are the media creating fear because of their incessant reporting? I don't think those are easy questions to answer, and think they are well worth discussing. As I mentioned in a previous comment: let's assume we don't have a problem, as some other people have commented. But at what point do we have a problem? Ten people like Bhatti? A hundred? A thousand? How would we know when it becomes a problem if we don't want the media to report it?! Again, hard questions to answer, and things well worth discussing, in a peaceful and constructive way.

Let's take this Bhatti guy, for example: he would like to push a stone-age belief-system on the rest of us in Norway, which would result in misery for most people. Sharia law; forcing women to live their lives in cloth bags; genital mutilation; etc etc. Societies where this belief system is widespread are the worst societies in the world to live in for women and children (infant mortality rates and life expectancy figures back this up). It is interesting to point out that those societies are not even nice places to live for the men.

Does that make me fearful? Well it doesn't make me feel happy. And it doesn't make me want to go and live in those societies. And it doesn't make me feel totally easy if that kind of worldview is spreading here. But has it spread here? Is it just Bhatti and his 2-3 crackpot friends? Or do they represent a far larger group who think like them, that are already here? I don't know for sure, but I do think it is something that we should continue discussing, and I do think that we should not lie to ourselves that these people don't exist, and that they don't pose a threat.

Personally I am of the opinion that this guy Bhatti (and Breivik, for that matter) should be given time in the media. We should discuss their ideas, and their worldviews. We should not censor their views from the media. We should not hide their views away, and pretend these people don't exist. We should use peaceful and reasonable argument to break their ideas down and expose them for what they really are: hateful, disgusting ideologies.

We should beat them not by playing by their rules (censorship, etc) or by ignoring them - but we should beat them using our rules - the rules that are at the very heart of us, and our democracies - the rules that previous generations gave up their lives to defend: freedom of speech, rational discussion and reason.

Is this strategy of yours also valid for the differences of opinion the West has with for example Iran, Syria and North-Korea as well?

Yes.

nope, you should really start to read what is actually written. And start to think what you self actually writes. You started your debate here by showing to the Quran, and saying that this (the extremists) is actually something that is to be legitimized through their book. Implying that this is actually a standard way of being a muslim.

"Jeg skriver dette på vegner av alle i Norge som er oppriktig lei av å høre om Krekar, Bhatti, Mohyeldeen og andre klovner."

- on behalf of those who are honestly tired of hearing about... basically everything you wrote in this text.

#27: "Extremist behaviour being legitimized through their book": well, it is legitimized through their book. And not just the Quran. It is also the Bible, the Hadith, the book of Mormon - all contain hateful, disgraceful professions of morality. Not twisted interpretations of the books, not my opinions - just the words in the books. Look them up yourself. If you’d like to know which verses I am referring to, just say so, and I will be happy to point out the countless disgusting verses in each of these terrifying, stone-age books.

"But this isn’t the standard way of being a muslim" (to quote your naive words). Let’s go to the polls (Pew studies 2002). Is suicide bombing innocent civilians ever justified in the name of Islam? Lebanon: 82% yes. Ivory coast: 73% yes. Nigeria, Jordan, Bangladesh, Mali, all over 50% yes. Even Turkey answers 20% yes. That is 11 million people, in Turkey. But what did you mean by "the standard way of being muslim"? If "the standard way" of being a muslim is to not take the Quran seriously, then great - I'm all for that! I don't take it seriously, and neither do you. But some people do believe that it is the perfect word of the creator of the universe, and it is those people who pose a threat to the rest of us. I am simply pointing that out. And then saying that the newspapers should point it out too, and keep pointing it out. We have 7th century beliefs in a context of 21st century destructive technology. We should all stop ignoring this elephant in the room.

Notice when Bhatti was asked if he was a terrorist, he replied "no, just a practising muslim". That was true. He isn't extreme, or a fundamentalist, or a terrorist - he just really believes the stuff that is written in the book. That's scary.

#28: Let me ask for the third time - for the sake of argument let's say you are "tired" of hearing about the media spreading fear about radical maniacs. Let us even say that the media are milking it. But at what point should we be concerned about it?! And how on earth do we know it is a problem if the media aren’t reporting it?! It only takes one person with deep belief to screw things up for the rest of us. We saw the damage that a handful true believers did on 9/11.

My point throughout has simply been this: I think it should be in our newspapers, because I think it is a real problem. I am open to arguments to persuade me otherwise. So far, no convincing arguments have been offered.

Ikke gi deg, J. M. Eriksson. Spør andre aviser også--og gjerne Dagbladet en gang til. Det står så mye verdiløst sludder i disse papirutgavene nå- "plastic-fantastic" på nesten enhver side, så å lage et hei dundrende oppslag om denne Palestinerleiren, tror jeg mange lesere ville sette pris på. Og, hva med å spørre f.eks. svenske eller danske aviser, som jo også skriver endel om Norge. PRØV- og lykke til !

Jeg har et lite spørsmål om ekstremisme:

Er det ekstremisme å være motstander av ekteskap mellom homofile? Eller å være motstander av homofili (uansett hvor tåpelig det er å være motstander av en ufrivillig egenskap ved et menneske, men det er en annen debatt)?

Eller kan man være moderat og fortsatt motstander av homofili og/eller ekteskap mellom homofile?

Dette synes jeg bør utdypes når man snakker om hvem som er "ekstremister" og hvem som ikke er det. Det er en slags "litmus-test", føler jeg.

Hei !

Gi dine egne spørsmål svar, ut fra hva du selv mener. Det ville jo bringe mer substans til innlegget. Eller skriv til LLH. De svarer mer enn gjerne på dine undringer- din digresjon.

Hei igjen !

Eller snu på flisa : Bytt ut ordet "homofil" i ditt innlegg med ordet heterofil. Og se hvilke nyanser og fakta som kommer seilende i tankene relatert til hva du undres over.

Gay Rights are Human Rights ! (Vennlige hilsener)

Have a question for Alex York:

I do not know where you have from that women are forced to wear the burqa or theniqab, but those who wear burka / niqab do it with free will, I am myself a Muslim and do not wear burka / niqab..og where the holy book is it says it is OK to beatwomen, take and read first and find real facts before you speak, in this case you should find the real facts to write about before you write anything at all .. it is kind ofpeople who think they know everything about the Muslim / Islam that gets people to think negatively about Islam / Muslims

Hi "nimo adbi". I am glad you joined in the discussion :-)

There are a few things in your comment I would like to respond to. You asked me to provide “real facts” and I am more than happy to do so.

Firstly, you asked me where I got the idea that women are forced to wear the hijab. The answer is that in Saudi Arabia and Iran, women are forced to wear hijab by law. Sadly, it is justified in the Quran (Surah 24:31, and Surah 33:59).

Then you explained that you wear a hijab, but it is of your own free will. I think that is great! If you ask me, women should be allowed to wear whatever they want. However, some women are not as lucky as you, and are sadly forced (by law, or by social pressure) to wear burkas against their will. In Afghanistan, it is not law that women must wear burkas, but if a woman removes her burka in public, she is often beaten or has her face burned off with battery acid. There are literally hundreds of abuse stories of this kind. Just google it - it is very well documented. I will be happy to provide links to abuse stories of this kind if you need them, but they are so common, you can surely find them yourself.

You then asked where in the Quran it says it is acceptable to beat women. The answer is: Surah 4:34.

Finally, I just want to point out that I definitely do not think negatively of Muslims. I think negatively about some of the doctrines of Islam (the ones that are unfair towards women, and the ones which condone violence).

I hope this answers your questions :-)

nimo adbi: Sorry, I forgot to mention - I really recommend reading the writing of a woman called Ayaan Hirsi Ali (she has a book called "Infidel"). She is a brave woman, a political activist, and fights for womens rights. She is one of my hero's.

You must be separated from the Quran and culture /, you said that "In Afghanistan,it is not law That women must wear burkas, but if a woman remove burqa in publichere, she is Often beaten or has her face Burned off with battery acid" .. that they beat up women is something they were taught or have grown up with, they could have possibly seen that perhaps their mothers were beaten up and they do the same, and that they think it is okay but it's more what they have learned at home and it has nothing to do with the Qur'an or what Allah (PBUH) has said .. and I would like to see the link on where in the Quran it says it is OK to beat women, because I have read and tried to find where it says it is OK to beat women and so far I can not find it .. and like you said "some women are sadly forced (by law, or by socialpressure) to wear burka against Their Will" .. by social pressure yeah, but the holy quran doesn said that women has to be forced to wear niqab..and every woman knows that one should not use the burka or niqab just because her husband or anyone else says it, they will use it because Allah has said? .. and every man knows that they should not touch women,..